WAIT UNTIL STARK COUNTY EDUCATORS HEAR THIS ONE. KIRK SCHURING & THE OHIO RETIREMENT STUDY COUNCIL ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH AGAIN?

Stark Countians have witnessed how many U.S workers have worked a lifetime to have retirement benefits only to loose them when companies go into bankruptcy.

Could the same thing happen to the professional class in America?

When Enron went belly up a number of years ago, the State Teachers Retirement System (STRS) lost millions of dollars. Some of us wanted to pointed the finger at the then state Representative Kirk Schuring (Republican - 51st) chairman of the Ohio Retirement Study Council (ORSC) for not putting in safeguards in place to prevent the losses.

Yours truly has never seen Schuring madder.

At a meeting at the North Canton Community Christian Church to explain to Stark County's teachers what responsibility he bore for the oversight malfunction of STRS investors; the red faced, angered Schuring vehemently denied any neglect.

Mad or not, the SCPR believes that Schuring and his fellows on the ORSC were asleep then and, perhaps, the slumber continues.

Today, the SCPR received an e-mail from STRS that indicated that a statutorily mandated requirement that it be able to fund teacher pensions out 30 years had slipped to 41.2 years as of July, 2008 and now in 2009 to - get this - INFINITY!

Here's the quote from the e-mail:

Even with these changes, the funding period for the pension fund stood at 41.2 years on July 1, 2008.  This means that based on the value of investment assets at that time, we expected to pay off all unfunded liabilities over the next 41 years by achieving an 8% annual rate of return and meeting all other actuarial assumptions.  However, due to the recession, the market value of our investment assets declined by about $24 billion over the past two fiscal years.  As a result, STRS Ohio's unfunded liability almost doubled in just one year and the funding period now stands at "infinity." (emphasis added) 

It wasn't until May, 2009 that Schuring and his fellows at the ORSC caught on.

In May according to the STRS e-mail:
[T]he Ohio Retirement Study Council, which is the legislative oversight body for Ohio's five public pension systems, instructed each system in May to present board-approved plans for achieving or maintaining a 30-year funding period at the ORSC's Sept. 9 meeting.
What are the options that the ORSC will be considering for STRS?

Here they are:

• Increasing contributions from the current 10% from active teachers and/or 14% from employers.
• Instituting a minimum retirement age or years of service for retirement.
• Increasing the number of years used to calculate final average salary to five from three.
• Changing the formula for calculating pensions.
• Changing the cost-of-living adjustment (COLA).

No action is expected by the Ohio Retirement Study Council until its October, 2009 meeting.  Even if ORSC acts in October, it could take months before corrective legislative action can be taken and enacted into law (getting the governor's signature) before the "infinity" timetable has a finite number put on it.

What will the finite number be?  50 years?  60 years?  70 years?

Kirk Schuring and Scott Oelslager (who likes to invoke his teacher parents as proof he looks out for teacher interests) have been roundly criticized by yours truly primarily because they violate the "spirit" of Ohio's term limits (switching back and forth between the 29th (Ohio Senate) and the 51st (Ohio House).

But there are other reasons why this duo need to be via election term limited by Stark Countians.

Of course, there is Schuring and his "failure to protect" the retirement of Stark County's teachers.

And, there is the failure to be in the lead in fixing the funding of Ohio's public schools ruled unconstitutional four times by the Ohio Supreme Court (DeRolfe) What is particularly galling about this pair is that they were members of the majority party (supermajority - veto proof) with a sitting Republican governor for a good portion of their time in the Legislature.

Moreover, the larger picture is that only thing that this duo has produced of consequence over their years in the Ohio General Assembly is Oelslager's work on open records.

Does anyone remember Schuring's "I'm going to fix the public schools funding problem" by way of constitutional amendment that never got off the ground?  It was a pipe dream from the beginning.  Even if it had gotten through the Ohio General Assembly, Governor Strickland was going to veto the provision because he had to protect his "I love him like a brother" protege John Boccieri.

The SCPR believes that Schuring was never serious about the effort.  It was designed to get free ink for the impending campaign against Boccieri; nothing more.

Schuring's and Oelslager's legislative record is pathetic and if Stark Countians continue to send them back to Columbus, then we Stark Countians, are part of our own problem.

One out for the voters is that the Stark County Democratic Party has put sacrificial lamb after sacrificial lamb up against these two election after election after election.

Will current Stark Democratic Party chair Randy Gonzalez do better than the recently resigned Johnnie A. Maier, Jr.?

For the SCPR, this will be a litmus test as to whether or not Gonzalez is going to pay more attention to the electability  and the quality of the party's candidates than Maier did during his tenure.

From the looks of how Schuring and Oelslager have not looked after education-in-general and educators-in-particular; those with a vested interest in STRS ought to be demanding that Gonzalez and the Democrats over a serious alternative come November, 2009.

But will they?

Probably not.  That would mean educators getting their hands dirty in the messy world of politics.

That "above-it-all-attitude," even when self-interest compels action, is exactly what Schuring and Oelslager rely on.

NORTHWEST SCHOOLS SERIES: VOLUME 2 - WHO RESPONDED TO THE SURVEY?

In order to repair its relationship with the Canal Fulton, Clinton and Lawrence Township community (CCLT), the Northwest Local School District (NWLSD) has a job to do making sure that CCLT folks are informed about the schools.

Most of the respondants to the Northwest Local Schools 2009 Community Survey (NWLS2009CS) conducted in June, 2009 feel they are informed about the local schools system.
But are they?

Area media have published numerous articles about the financial straits of the Northwest schools as a consequence of citizens' refusal to vote for operating levies for 10 successive tries and the Ohio Department of Education placing Northwest in its "fiscal caution" category of Ohio schools in financial trouble in July, 2008.
And yet as the following graph shows, nearly 7 out 10 survey respondents were "unaware" that Northwest schools were in financial distress.

Later in this series, the SCPR will show data from the NWLS2009CS showing that schools/citizen communication is not a Northwest school board and administration strength.

In the opinion of the SCPR, the only way the Northwest schools will make CCLT citizenry a "truly" informed body is for board members to "hit the road" and embark on a systematic and thorough person-to-person contact on an annual basis.

But will they do it?

Probably not.

Many if not most board members have an unrealistic take on the hard work that is inherent in being an effective board member. One of the hardest parts is finding a way (home visits, personal letters, e-mails, telephone calls and the like) to be in one-on-one contact with community members.

Numbers from this survey (which the SCPR does not believe incorporates much of the hard core resistance to a new operating levy and which the SCPR will publish in future volumes in this series), indicate a high amount of distrust of the Northwest board and administration from the "more school friendly part" of the CCLT community.

Unless and until the board makes a focused and continuing effort to get into a one-on-one dialogue with the community, the distrust is likely to persist and, perhaps, worsen.

Getting a levy passed in an environment of distrust in Northwest or in any school district very unlikely.

NORTHWEST SCHOOLS SERIES: VOLUME 1 - DID THE BOARD OF EDUCATION NEED TO SPEND $13,000 THEY DON'T HAVE TO FIGURE OUT THAT THEY HAVE A TRUST PROBLEM?

Recently, the Northwest schools decided it need to get out in the community to do a survey to document what almost certainly the board members already intuitively knew: Northwest schools have a community credibility problem.

So you have a school district on financial "life support" that somehow could did up $13,000 plus to learn what they already knew but did not get into the core of the opposition group of voters to the 10 time failed levies.

Over a period of time the SCPR is going to be slicing and dicing that survey for which the field work was done June 11 through June 13, 2009.

It might come to mind to SCPR readers that this series only pertains to Canal Fulton, Clinton and Lawrence Township readers of the blog.

But hold on a minute.

There are problems out there across Stark County with all of the 17 school districts. Jackson and Plain schools only recently passed "survivor" level levies. Soon they will be back for more. Minerva, Fairless and Norrtwest face immediate financial crises.

However, there are more waiting in the wings. Most likely all of the remaining districts with North Canton at the head of the list.

Lake schools have to be particularly nervous given the fact that they were bounced by the voters 70% to 30% on a school bond issue within the past year.

So all you readers need to be applying the lessons of this serious to your own school district.

BACK TO NORTHWEST.

To the SCPR, to get rejected by the voters in 10 straight elections is proof enough in and of itself to establish that the voters do not trust the judgment of school administrators and board members to take their word for it that more funds are needed to keep the schools afloat and that they will be spent judiciously and wisely.

The SCPR has scanned through through the "Northwest Local Schools 2009 Community Survey" (NLS2009CS) and over the coming weeks and, perhaps, months will go over the survey with a fine toothed comb.

What strikes the SCPR right out of the gate is how clearly "cherry-picked" the participants of the survey were. Obviously, this survey went in the main to school district constituents who support the schools election-in and election-out. Knowing him as yours truly does, yours truly can see from the make up the survey that Northwest superintendent William Stetler has the major role if not the only role in working with The Impact Group of Hudson, Ohio to put the survey together.

Stetler is a "pollyanish" type who is typical of superintendents these days who are more politician than they are administrator. No doubt there are strong political and public relations factors to getting school levies passed this day and age. However, it has come to a "political and public relations" approach because school administrators and board members have not stayed in close contact with the basic attitude of school district voters.

Also interesting is how The Impact Group describes itself, to wit:

The SCPR's initial take on this believed to be Stetler public relations/political based survey, is that it is not designed to get to the core of community dissatisfaction, but rather to finesse the matter enough to get a "survivor" levy passed.

Stetler really (in the opinion of the SCPR) wanted to try again this November to get a levy passed as witness by the calling of and holding of a special board meeting to air out reported "community interest" in going right back at it with a November effort even in the light a increased voter opposition in November, 2008.

But the Stetler "closet" (in the sense he referred to a phantom groundswell - noted by their absence at the August 5th "special" board meeting) effort failed and the board wisely decided to embark on a "rebuilding public trust" initiative before trying again.

The SCPR has already suggested a mechanism that the board (if they are up to a "roll of the sleeves" effort) can implement to really and truly turn things around in the school district so that passing levies will again be doable. Not easy, but doable.

The same can be done throughout Stark County. Alliance, Canton, Massillon, Jackson, Plain and Lake could be difficult because the populations are significantly larger than most Stark school districts but by employing focus, determination and persistence; even the larger school districts could really get into the nitty gritty of their constituents.

Even though is not impressed with the selected base of The Impact Group survey on the Northwest schools, in the coming time period the SCPR will be parsing the survey with an analysis of what it says about Northwest schools from a cherry-picked - on the whole - respondent group.

NORTHWEST SCHOOLS: CAN SCHOOL OFFICIALS RE-BUILD TRUST?

A major problem in Stark County these days, is the build up of mistrust by many of our citizens of Stark's local units of government.

Mistrust is all around us.

Canton and its mayor. Marlboro Township and its trustees. North Canton and some of its citizens. And Canal Fulton/Lawrence Township citizens and their schools.

To be sure, there are quite a number of other examples.

But you get the point.

As does board member Gindlesberger of the Northwest Board of Education.

Gindlesberger is quoted in The Massillon Independent piece No action means no Nov. levy for N'West (at yesterday's meeting [August 5, 2009], which was billed as an exploratory meeting as to whether or not Northwest should make another levy attempt in the face of ten consecutive defeats, as follows:

The trust issue is huge. It’s something that we may not even correct by May. We are not one community. We are two communities and we have to fix that.

Northwest will not pass a levy until it makes substantial progress in re-building trust. Superintendent Stetler can pontificate all he wants to, to wit:

What we are doing is verging on immoral. We can’t do this to our children just because adults can’t get along. We’re going to fight like heck to get an issue passed.

Gindlesberer appears to be, and hopefully the rest of the board is, way ahead of Stetler who talks about a "new strategy - a new offensive plan."

It is about trust and it is not about politically outmaneuvering the voting public as "Stetler talk" seems to suggest.

Let's see, there about 5,000 households in Canal Fulton and Lawrence Township. There are 5 board members. 5,000 divided by 5 equals 1,000. So if each board member were to take on being in touch (via e-mail, snail mail, home visits, telephone calls - whatever works for a particular household) with 1,000 households over the course of a calendar year, maybe just maybe, you would have the beginnings of re-building trust in the Northwest Local School District.

Over a five year cycle (by switching 1000 blocks), each board member will have endeavored to be in touch with each and every household in the Canal Fulton/Lawrence Township community.

Rebuilding trust would mean "really listening" to willing community participants. It would mean communicating the "partnership aspect of educating children" to the willing. It would mean a constructing "a climate of willingness to change my point-of-view in the context of rational, factually based dialogue."

The is a huge difference between the "rebuilding trust" model and the Stetler model of "finessing the voter for this election" model.

Board members will remain in the community. The superintendent is not likely to.

The will have continuing accountability, the superintendent will not.

In the news article about the August 5th meeting, there is way to much focus on the superintendent. He is a transitory figure. Stetler has already retired and rehired at Lake. He took a education job in Columbus based on his Republican political ties. When Strickland bounced the Republican, Stetler was history. That's how he ended up back in Stark County to the only superintendent job available to him at the time.

Northwest board members need to reassert control of their schools. The day of the "expert" superintendent fostered by the likes of Stetler and Lambes before him are gone forever. School superintendents are fast losing the public confidence because for the most part they are not community people but merely professional moving through.

So it is up to the abiding Canal Fulton/Northwest element to re-build trust: the local board of education members, that's who.

Can Northwest do it by February?

Probably not.

But today is the day for each and every member of the Northwest Board of Education to begin the challenging task of rebuilding trust in the Canal Fulton/Lawrence Township community!

REP EDITORS HAVE TO BE THE ENVY OF STARK'S "CHEERLEADER-IN-CHIEF" AND FORMER CANTON MAYOR JANET CREIGHTON: NO?

When you don't have the moxie to challenge Stark County's leadership to excellence, what is there left to do?

Cheer-lead, that's what.

Even losing teams have cheerleaders.

And cheerleading seems to be a quality that The Canton Repository editorial board is set on honing and emphasizing these days.

For the life of yours truly, there's nothing to cheer about with the Stark Education Partnership (SEP), if you judge the organization by its president Doctor Adrienne O'Neill (PhD) and her interaction with the hoi polli public.

O'Neill is a lady who did not have the good sense to respond to an e-mail question yours truly sent her about the performance of the SEP about a year ago. As the SCPR is wont to do, the unanswered e-mail was followed up with an "embarrassing to her" telephone call. If that had not worked, then at one of her frequent public appearances, the question(s) would have been asked in that forum.

The goal of the SCPR is not to embarrass, but to get answers to incisive questions. and to prod Stark community leaders into questing for excellence. Undoubtedly, on the Stark high brow social circuit O'Neil gets a steady diet of "softball" education questions. Accordingly, she would not be practiced in handling the really difficult ones.

If O'Neill's take on improving Stark education is indicative of what is going on in Stark County education, then we should all embark on a fervent prayer life.

Back to The Repository Editorial Board.

The Rep editorial board picks up O'Neill's and SEP's claim to fame in touting the increasing number of graduates from Stark's high schools (which apparently is the "main claim to fame" achievement stretching over 20 years). The truth of the matter is that rates could not go anywhere but up from the abysmal levels that existed when SEP took up this project. You have to start somewhere.

The more important question of SEP and O'Neil is what do Stark's graduates know (core knowledge) and what are the graduates' processing skills (ability to think critically, creatively and innovatively)?

Wouldn't want to spoil a good cheerleading session with questions like those, would you?

Last week Governor Ted Strickland was in town to tell us that the Jackson school system has arrived to the point that if all Ohio schools were like Jackson, Ohio would have no need for educational reform?

Unbelievable!

And guess what we got out of The Rep's editors?

Yes, yes and yes again: SILENCE.

The governor failed to mention Jackson's 36% remediation rate when its graduates go to college and the heavens only know what employers have to spend in extra - make up for what was missed in high school - "education" dollars when these grads hit the workplace.

The SCPR has asked educators throughout Stark County (including O'Neill) about the extraordinarily high remediation rates and has gotten no meaningful answers: only a shrug of the shoulders or some nonsense like "we didn't have the college evaluative tests beforehand."

O'Neil takes a page out of a politician's book and "changed the subject when asked by the SCPR about what is being done about the high remediation rate. All she wants to talk about is the increasing rates of graduation among Stark's high schools. Why shouldn't she. Changing the subject is working. She and SEP gets cheered on by The Repository on cherry picked data that has not been examined critically as to the "real" significance to quality education occurring in Stark.

So Doctor O'Neill, if a school with a 50% graduation rate and a 70% remediation rate increases its graduation rate to 95%; what, pray-tell, would be the new remediation rate?

Since the emphasis is pushing more students out the door with degrees, wouldn't it stand to reason that the remediation rates will escalate. Maybe a little sacrificing quality for quantity might be going on?

Yours truly, in the comments sections of The Repository and perhaps in a "letter to the editor" or two used to chide former Canton mayor Janet Creighton for functioning mainly as a cheerleader in her role as Canton's chief executive.

But for Creighton there was nothing else to do.

Stark County's leadership infrastructure has evaporated with the loss of Canton's industrial base.

The Canton Regional Chamber of Commerce sat and watched and wringed their hands. The chamber is the only game in town as a specific attempt to rebuild Stark's lost leadership capability. But yours truly suspects its curriculum and regimen is not nearly tough enough. Not everyone who engages the program should be able to get through it. And, for the ones who do, there ought to be an accountability-esque report on the chamber's website detailing how the leadership school experience enabled specifically identified graduates to produce measurable results for Stark County.

Back to The Repository Editorial Board.

If Canton had a newspaper with aggressive, thoughtful, reflective, penetrating and a "no nonsense" public accountability qualities about its editorial board, there would be reason to be cheered about the future of Stark.

But the opposite is true.

The Rep appears to be in death throes. The folks at 500 South Market Avenue appear to be just trying to get from day-to-day. Just talk to the everyday Rep employee. Despair abounds everywhere.

Except that is with the editorial board.

Like the cheerleaders for the bottom dwelling team, they will cheer on until the bitter end.

HOLDING THE GOVERNOR ACCOUNTABLE SERIES: "THE POLITICAL SEASON IS IN FULL BLOOM?" JACKSON HAS 36% COLLEGE REMEDIATION RATE - NO NEED FOR REFORM?

If there ever was a sure sign Ted Strickland is in for the fight of his political life, all doubt is removed with his "kickoff political barn - err school storming trip to various school districts in Ohio to make the case that he and his administration is making progress on his promise to "Turnaround Ohio" made to Ohio voters in the 2006 gubernatorial campaign.

Reforming Ohio's education infrastructure is the key to his "turnaround" promise.

Strickland, you will recall, said early on in his administration that he would be a "failed governor" if he failed to reform education in Ohio.

Undoubtedly, his political operatives say that he is making headway.

But is he?

Strickland came to Stark County on Friday to Jackson Township. What he had to say makes one wonder if Strickland has read his own Ohio Board of Regent's report on how ill-prepared Jackson graduates are for college?

Jackson, Lake and North Canton are the best we have in Stark and they all share similar numbers on the need for remediation.

A keystone to the Strickland Ohio economic development plan is having high school graduates ready for college (for those who choose to attend) or ready for the workforce.

The SCPR compared Jackson to Hudson High School (Summit County). And sorry to say the results were not even close.

Hudson is the creme-de-la-creme but it has always been no matter what the folks in Columbus do or don't do.

Recently, Jackson has passed a "survive these times" levy after failure of larger levies which might have enabled Jackson administrators and faculty to cut into the gulf between the Jackson and Hudson remediation rates.

But Stark Countians would not approve the higher levies.

So the only solution will have to be with the state of Ohio or more well off districts like Hudson will continue to outshine Stark County's 17 school districts.

And get this.

Stark Taxpayers get to pay twice for what were are not getting from Stark's high schools. If those students go to either Kent - Stark or Stark State and our grads are required to take remediation course; they get no credit and still have to pay tuition and buy books for these non-credit towards graduation course.

If they attend college outside of Stark, then the rest of Ohio's taxpayers help Stark Countians with the "double taxation" as we do them.

There are many more costs to Stark's, Ohio's and the nation's economies for the high remediation rate.

Employers who get "unprepared" recently graduated from high schools have to make up for the deficiencies in basic educational skills (reading, writing and math) by purchasing technology which does basic human skills and thereby masks the graduates lack of fundamental skills. Moreover, these employers may have to provide post high school training that is general and not job specific just to get the newly high school graduated employee to the point where they can cope with job specific add-on skills.

So employers all too often end up with a "surcharge tax" of sorts because of the failures of Stark's high schools.

And there are other costs that the SCRP will be holding up to Stark County educational officials and the governor as huge barriers to turning around Stark's and Ohio's economy.

When Strickland first appeared on the gubernatorial political scene, yours truly thought Strickland was different from the typical politician. However, skepticism has replaced the initial hope.

Strickland seems to buying to the politics of the likes of former Stark County Democratic Party chairman Johnnie A. Maier, Jr and his ilk which include: "spin" the failures, finger point at political opponents, revise and qualify political history/statements and above all - don't be a stand up and be accountable public official.

For Ohio and Stark County to have any chance at all to become a place for the creative, the energetic, the industrious, the imaginative, the optimistic and the forward thinking to take up residence; the bench mark of the need for remediation at college and in the workplace with have to be at the Hudson level or below statewide.

Until it is, Stark County and Ohio will continue to be the backwater of economical growth and development.

Strickland may get re-elected in 2010, but he is well on his way to being a failed governor on his self selected substantive standard - education.

If he fails, he will survive the personal put-down, but Stark County and Ohio may not!

S OHIO'S GOVERNMENT LOOKING TO GET ITS HAND ON PUBLIC PENSION FUNDS? WILL THE STARK COUNTY DELEGATION FIGHT TO PROTECT PUBLIC PENSIONS?

The Stark County Political Report remembers when ENRON went belly up (2000/2001) and cost members of the Ohio State Teachers Retirement System $56.6 million. PERS lost $58.8 million.

One of the guardians of STRS and PERS was supposed to be state Senator Kirk Schuring (R - Jackson). At least that's what the SCPR thinks. Schuring gets very angry (which is rare for him), when yours truly makes this allegation.

Why does the SCPR assign Schuring the guardian role during the time the ENRON fiasco unfolded?

Because Senator Schuring was president of the Ohio Retirement Study Council (ORSC) at the time. And the SCPR believes the ORC failed many of Ohio's retired public employees in neglecting to uphold its obligations spelled out in Ohio Revised Code Chapter 717.

Now Schuring is vice chairman of the ORSC.

One has to wonder whether or not a repeat of ENRON is in the offing for Ohio's public employee retirees? If not, what has been done to prevent a repeat?

It would be reassuring for Ohio's public to hear from Senator Schuring that ORSC security is improved.

In 2009, it is not the private sector that bears watching. Now it is Ohio's government.

Governor Ted Strickland is desperate to have the money to keep Ohio going. Until the state budget god tight, Strickland was against expanding gambling in Ohio. But just days ago he signed an executive order command the Ohio Lottery Commission to begin installing slots at Ohio's racetracks.

Now comes word that he and the Ohio General Assembly took at look at "borrowing" money from PERS (Ohio's Public Employess Retirement System).

Although STRS (the State Teachers Retirement System) was not being eyed by the governor, his look at PERS was not lost on STRS:

Here is a few excepts from an e-mail that STRS sent out:

OPERS CONTRIBUTION REDUCTION PROPOSED TO HELP STATE BUDGET
On June 19, 2009, Gov. Ted Strickland proposed that the state's contribution to public employees' pensions be reduced from 14 percent to 8 percent for two years, with a payback to the Ohio Public Employees Retirement System (OPERS) to occur over the subsequent 10 years. This proposal was made as a way to help balance the state's budget.

...

While STRS Ohio and the other public pension systems in the state were not included in the proposal, the executive directors of STRS Ohio, School Employees Retirement System (SERS) and the Highway Patrol Retirement System sent a joint letter to the governor and the members of the Ohio General Assembly also voicing their opposition.

...

The proposal was eventually rejected by lawmakers and was not part of the state's final budget. Going forward, all the systems will need to be vigilant to ensure such proposals do not surface again.

How much would the proposed raid on PERS brought the governor in his frantic search for dollars?

Here is what Akron Beacon Journal Statehouse reporter Dennis Williard has to say (Scrutiny missing in state budget, July 19):

... Strickland's proposal to reduce the state's contribution to the Ohio Public Employees Retirement System ... would have been a $250 million raid on the pension plan.

The SCPR believes Stark's public employees should heed STRS's warning. The questions that Stark County's public employees should be asking themselves should include:

"Do I want my pension fund to be making a ten year loan to the state of Ohio?

And, if not: "Can I trust my legislator to stop this from happening?"

Now that we know he uses The Repository opinion pages to explain his votes; perhaps, the good Senator Schuring would explain why public employment retirees have no worries about the security of their pension. Seeing as he is an expert of sorts on protecting public employees pension dollars.

And for good measure, maybe Oelslager, Slesnick, Okey, Snitchler and Schiavoni will chime in?